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Clarfication on flag burning protest

Posted 6 February, 2010 - 18:35 by LJ Holden

We've received a number of messages regarding a flag-burning protest by "republicans" today, reported tonight by TVNZ. Firstly, the "Republican Party" has nothing to do with the Republican Movement; we are a separate organisation.

Secondly, we do not support burning New Zealand's flag, which is probably illegal. Not only does burning the flag not acheive anything, it offends plenty of people unnecessarily.

Republican Movement

Comments

Actually, I hope Bill and Ben

by Craig (not verified) - 08/02/2010 - 10:20am

Actually, I hope Bill and Ben are. They're quite amusing, and we need an intentional joke political party around. And 'microparties' are those that tend to get less than one percent of the vote, and resultantly will never get into Parliament...so that's the fundamentalist Kiwi and Family Parties, Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis*, Residents Action Movement, Workers Party, Libertarianz and the RNZP.

*Varies. They get more than one percent of the vote sometimes, but I get the feeling most of the more pragmatist potheads don't want to 'waste' their vote. It is the best polling microparty. for all that

ALCP do act like a microparty

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 12:32pm

ALCP do act like a microparty though - they take a fairly fundamentalist approach to drugs in that they want marijuana legalised, contrast that with NORML who are for de-criminalisation first and "medical" marijuana. My understanding is that most "potheads" take this approach, and vote Green (mainly due their political perspective as well I think).

Chair of the Republican Movement

Indeed...some cannabis

by Craig (not verified) - 08/02/2010 - 12:38pm

Indeed...some cannabis decriminalisers despair of ALCP and wish it would go away, given its single-issue approach and tactical fundamentalism... as is the case with a certain clip on republicanoid party which shall remain nameless (but has the initials RNZP!)

Indeed, given that a

by Craig (not verified) - 08/02/2010 - 12:43pm

Indeed, given that a political party needs *five hundred* members to be registered by the NZ Electoral Commission, and RNZP only got about *316* votes in total back in November 2008 (and only 334 back in 2005), logically, not all RNZP members appear to have voted for their own benighted microparty...

Absolutely. It's not so much

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 12:42pm

Absolutely. It's not so much that we want them to "go away", it's that they use republicanism to advance their views on the issues they're really into - e.g. the Family Court, a Ministry of "Men's Affairs". In doing so they damage all republicans, which is very frustrating - particularly given that we're obviously the larger republican group.

When I first met Kerry Bevin, the RNZP leader, in 2007 (they crashed our debate on Dominion Day) he asked me what my "issue" was - as Chair of the Republican Movement. Fairly obvious I would've thought.

Chair of the Republican Movement

Hence the term 'clip on

by Craig (not verified) - 08/02/2010 - 12:46pm

Hence the term 'clip on republicanism' ...implying that is an optional extra to their tiresome male backlash antifeminist agenda and obsessions about the Family Court, child support payments, Uncle Tom Cobley ad nauseum

It's just attention seeking,

by Mihcael (not verified) - 07/02/2010 - 1:11pm

It's just attention seeking, not protest. If the Republican Movement can't achieve it's aims peacefully then it's not a legitimate aim. (So far so good.)

Michael, this was not a

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 7:57am

Michael, this was not a protest organised or endorsed by us.

Chair of the Republican Movement

Yeah, I knew that. I'm

by Mihcael (not verified) - 08/02/2010 - 9:48pm

Yeah, I knew that. I'm contrasting your movement which provides debate on constitutional issues with idiots who think burning the flag proves anything.

Oh good. Sorry for getting

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 10:11pm

Oh good. Sorry for getting you wrong :-)

Chair of the Republican Movement

Ho hum. It looks like the

by Craig (not verified) - 07/02/2010 - 1:08pm

Ho hum. It looks like the RNZP decided to amp up its clip on
"republicanism' with a ritual piece rather than meaningful engagement with the issues. Reminds me, I really must get round to doing that Gaynz.Com piece on microparties and their irrelevance to NZ politics that I've been ruminating about.

Look forward to it Craig.

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 7:57am

Look forward to it Craig.

Chair of the Republican Movement

You mean microparties like

by Rich d'Rich (not verified) - 07/02/2010 - 2:25pm

You mean microparties like United Future and Jim Anderton? Or the ones that don't get within a country mile of making quota, like Bill and Ben or the Outdoor Recreation Binding Referendum Resistance Movement.

Somehow I don't think Bill &

by newt (not verified) - 07/02/2010 - 4:10pm

Somehow I don't think Bill & Ben will be back.

Time will tell...

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 12:33pm

Time will tell...

Chair of the Republican Movement

They might reform as some

by Rich d'Rich (not verified) - 11/02/2010 - 1:37pm

They might reform as some sort of family values Christian movement.

Let's hope so!

by LJ Holden - 11/02/2010 - 5:33pm

Let's hope so!

Chair of the Republican Movement

I wouldn't be surprised if

by Craig (not verified) - 11/02/2010 - 2:07pm

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some overlap in terms of the male backlash connection in RNZP's case. The Christian Right is rather quaint with its antiquated pink and blue polarised gender role playing, especially considering we've already had two consecutive female Prime Ministers, a female Telecom CEO, NZ Supreme Court justice and Finance Minister.

Most of the Christian Right seem to be kneejerk monarchists, though... apart from my cousin who's the 'blue sheep' of our red ribbon devoutly leftist family...devoutly Catholic...and republican...

Yep certainly not a good

by WestmiNZter Monarchist (not verified) - 06/02/2010 - 7:36pm

Yep certainly not a good look....I did not see this on the news myself, but my neighour (HK immigrant) said to me "those republican people have been burning NZ flags....are they terrorists?" Certainly not a good look and the publicity they get belies the fact they have a tiny following.

Just goes to show that republicanism is not immune to vandals and publicity seekers in their midst!

"we do not support burning New Zealand's flag" Good on you! But many republicans do want it to be replaced. That would be more devastating to the flag than one copy being burnt by a publicity-seeking republican.

I might also point out that

by Craig Young (not verified) - 10/02/2010 - 6:07pm

I might also point out that not all who sail under the flags of monarchy are neccessarily as civil and polite as our friend WestmiNZter. The Australian League of Rights is staunchly monarchist for example and also associates with more violent white supremacist groups as well as its deplorable history of racism, antisemitism and neofascism. Fortunately, its New Zealand branch developed sclerosis and died back in 2007.

I support our current

by WestmiNZter Monarchist (not verified) - 11/02/2010 - 1:10am

I support our current constitution. However I do also recognise it is not perfect. The monarchy as an institution goes back centuries (with a slight hiatus) and has accumulated traditions and conditions that C21st people and social conventions would deem to be not entirely appropriate! The result is that the monarchy now has a white European Anglo-Christian patriarchical bloodline. Unfortunately this leads to its attraction for skinheads, fascists and ultra-revisionists. On the other hand, in NZ republicanism can sound more attractive to anarchists and communist.

Given some of its other policies, your friends, the Republican Party is a bit of mystery to me on this score....I would have thought it would have been Monarchist to be honest!

I am pleased I seem polite....although there has been the odd time I would like to give "The Chair" a verbal slap!

Granted, although I know

by Craig (not verified) - 11/02/2010 - 2:00pm

Granted, although I know quite a few centre-right constitutional and social liberals who agree with me about republicanism and constitutional reform. And some liberal monarchists* who agree with me about a written constitution. And I have a cousin who's a conservative Catholic and republican (!) In practice, the dividing line is rather murky and doesn't neccessarily always map on to other constitutional, social and political issues...

*"But Craig, doesn't it bother you that Canada is a constitutional monarchy? (smirk)" [My mate Alan the pro-choice, same-sex marriage supporting and assisted suicide backing ACT supporter and third generation Sino-Kiwi]
"I'm willing to live, learn and adapt. And come to think of it, there is a Canadian republican movement..."

Given some of its other

by LJ Holden - 11/02/2010 - 1:11pm

Given some of its other policies, your friends, the Republican Party is a bit of mystery to me on this score....I would have thought it would have been Monarchist to be honest!

I think they are. As Craig said, they're into "tack-on" republicanism.

although there has been the odd time I would like to give "The Chair" a verbal slap!

As long as it's only verbal :-D. There's lots of people who want to slap me.

Chair of the Republican Movement

Wasn't it just one guy?I'll

by LJ Holden - 10/02/2010 - 10:33pm

Wasn't it just one guy?

I'll give WestmiNZter one thing - he doesn't give up. And yes, he's yet to accuse me of being in the IRA, Freemasons or being a communist (all things I'm regularily accused of).

Chair of the Republican Movement

a tiny following.Yes, they

by LJ Holden - 07/02/2010 - 8:58am

a tiny following.

Yes, they got fewer votes than we have members.

BTW, you'd really be "devastated" if the flag changes? I thought it was a non-issue...

Chair of the Republican Movement

"I thought it was a

by WestmiNZter Monarchist (not verified) - 07/02/2010 - 3:58pm

"I thought it was a non-issue..." Well I wrote that it was a non-issue CONSTITUTIONALLY. That does not imply that I think that the design of the flag is non-issue from the perspective of NZ society or people.

But I wonder, did you omit a vital word from what I wrote by mistake or deliberately to try to undermine my post?

That was not the only thing whose meaning was twisted: I actually said ""we do not support burning New Zealand's flag" Good on you! But many republicans do want it to be replaced. That would be more devastating to the flag than one copy being burnt by a publicity-seeking republican." So no, I would not be devastated, the existing NZ flag would be devastated by being eliminated if many republicans (many of whom also want to see the current NZ flag replaced) got their way.

Obviously you'd find it

by LJ Holden - 08/02/2010 - 7:59am

Obviously you'd find it devastating, so I didn't manipulate anything. I do read your comments before replying, after all ;-)

Chair of the Republican Movement

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